Donald Lu, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, says the Biden administration is committed to its strategic partnerships in the region, aims to invest in the sovereignty and independence of the Central Asian states, while understanding policies that are rational for Central Asian interests. Lu confirms that counterterrorism cooperation with the countries neighboring Afghanistan is a priority. He also argues that the promotion of human rights and democracy remains high on the agenda. In an interview with Voice of America's Navbahor Imamova, Lu also explained how Washington is assisting the countries to overcome and avoid the impact of Western sanctions on Russia.
(July 5, 2022: State Department statement on Karakalpakstan events)
Full transcript of the interview conducted at the State Department, June 30, 2022:
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Thank you so much for talking to us, for being available to have a conversation with us.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: This is a post-American Central Asia. It's nearly a year since the United States left Afghanistan and for the longest time, what we heard both in the region and here was that Afghanistan is a priority. Is it still a priority? Because from the military establishment, we hear that it still is. But what are your main concerns or goals in the region right now? I know you have a long list of strategic aims, but currently, what are you really focused on?
... multi-vector diplomacy... It makes a lot of sense to me that if you're a Central Asian republic.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: I was just traveling in Central Asia last month. They
great visits. People were so friendly and welcoming. But we had several things on our mind. We're trying to understand what the effect is of Russia's invasion of Ukraine on the people of this region. We know that some of the economies are really suffering. We can see food prices are rising, fuel prices are rising. Migrant workers are being forced home. It's very hard to export. We're trying to determine as a partner of Central Asia, what can we do to help? We don't want to come to pressure, but we do want to come with a message that we can be a part of helping to solve these problems together.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: And what is that assistance going to be about?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, there will be several things that we're doing. First is we're trying to help educate some of the governments about what are the sanctions that they need to be careful about. But the worst thing for these economies is if they get caught up in some of these global sanctions. So, they've been talking to us. We've been sharing information that's helpful and they already are in some ways.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: An Uzbek firm is now blacklisted…
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: … very pleased with the good communication we have with the governments of the region over this. None of them want to have their companies or individuals sanctioned. And I think we're being actually quite successful in avoiding that. It's not 100 percent, but we're doing a good job. I would note, we're also providing licenses for Russian banks they're trying to get out of Kazakhstan. We want those Russian banks to be sold to Kazakhs so they become Kazakh banks. We want to make sure that we are providing licenses that make it very clear that the CPC pipeline and Kazakh oil are immune from sanctions because that's the last thing we want to do, is to hurt the oil and gas industry of this region.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: So the message then is be careful, be aware, don't do anything that's going to aid the Russian government or the Russian military in any way... But at the same time if you have businesses connected with Russia, let us help you bypass sanctions?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Let us help you explain what is sanctions and what's not sanctioned. We are not directing sanctions against the Russian people. The sanctions are very clearly against Mr. Putin, his inner circle of elites, some government officials and the Russian military. How could you see if you can avoid these things and some of the banking system? You can avoid Russian sanctions. You just have to be smart about it.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: How concerned should the Uzbek government be now that at least one firm is blacklisted?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, we have excellent discussions with Uzbek officials about these issues, about this specific company. I know we're going to have excellent cooperation. I'm not worried about...
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: How about with the Kazakh government? At least a couple of banks are on sanctions list.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: A couple of Russian banks are on sanctions list, but they are selling those banks to Kazakh. I love that, because Kazakhstan will be stronger when it owns the big banks that operate in its country. So I think that's a win-win for people of Kazakhstan.
We really believe in independent, sovereign and prosperous Central Asian countries that respect their democratic institutions, human rights and civil society. That's what we want to promote in the region. I think Central Asian people are looking for very much the same thing.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: At the same time, Central Asian governments let's say specifically Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, they have very deep, strong ties with Russia that they are not going to stop. That will continue and that's what we hear from from those governments as well. At the same time when I was in the region recently in Tashkent, for example, in private conversations, what I heard from some policymakers, officials was that they resent what Russia is doing. They can't say that out loud. They can't denounce it. They are officially neutral.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Yes.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: But at the same time they want to have good relations with you. They want to balance. They want to make sure that they're not burning any bridges. How are you going to balance these relationships? You know that Central Asians need Russia. You can't change the geography or the fact that these ties are deep.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: When I worked and lived in Central Asia, I learned this term: multi-vector diplomacy. It's not that I've never heard that before, but it makes a lot of sense to me that if you're a Central Asian republic. No matter which republic you are, a rational policy is to take the best from all of your partners from Moscow, from Beijing, from Washington, from Brussels and from Ankara, that you have several partners who are all vying for influence and good treatment in Central Asia. A rational foreign policy is to work with them and take the best from all of them. And I can see that many of these countries are doing just that.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: And for the longest time, the U.S. government has been criticized and you know this, you are a career diplomat, for having just transactional relationships with the region. How transactional are you now?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, I would point to our Central Asia strategy. Our Central Asia strategy is meant to convey what we stand for as the United States. We're not standing against Russia or standing against China. We're saying what we really believe in independent, sovereign and prosperous Central Asian countries that respect their democratic institutions, human rights and civil society. That's what we want to promote in the region. I think Central Asian people are looking for very much the same thing.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Central Asian governments hope that you are listening to them to their concerns, to their interests, to what they want to do because they all have their own roadmaps.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Right.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: I mean development strategies and other things. When we talk to them when they visit here, they've been saying lately that you listen to them, that you want to know what they want to do. So, in some ways, especially when you're in the region you get a sense that this is definitely a post-American region where the region now is dictating which trajectory it wants to take...
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Yes.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Are you OK with that? Can you still push your own agenda?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: This is exactly what we hope would happen which is Central Asian countries and the region as a whole creates its own voice. That really demonstrates that these are sovereign countries with their own interests and their own agenda. We see that in the C5+1. There have been two very successful discussions with Secretary of State Blinken. One in person in New York in September... The one in September was about Afghanistan and what was happening there and how we can work together as six countries on the security threats coming out of Afghanistan.
We are working every day to try to influence what is happening in Afghanistan, for the betterment of the people of Afghanistan, but also a stable region.
And in April we spoke about Ukraine and Russia, what was happening there and candidly talked about it... Changes and challenges that would pose for each of the countries in the region, and you're exactly right, Central Asian states show great leadership in telling us what they want from this relationship. They are leading the C5+1. We are happy to be working with them on Afghanistan.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: We know exactly what the Uzbek government wants. We know what Kazakhs, Tajiks, Kyrgyz want as well. And it's not necessarily the same thing that you want... If you listen to the Uzbek government, they want an international agreement to recognize the Taliban. They think the Taliban is not going anywhere.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: I think that's not entirely correct. I think there's actually a global consensus, to include Moscow and Beijing and Iran, that it's too early to look at recognition. Yes, some countries are beginning a very slow process of normalization of relations. No one is talking about formal recognition, including the Uzbek government. We are talking about their engagement that can happen, that can improve things on the ground in Afghanistan, the rights of women and girls, the security situation. It's critical that all of us work together to try to encourage the Taliban onto a constructive path.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: But there hasn't been any progress though, for the last year. Have you seen any signs of change that will bring you closer to, let's see, start communicating with the Taliban?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: I think that's you make a very good point. That change is slow. I would note that this is a country that has been at war for 40 years. It's just this past year where some of that fighting has died down and the Taliban now has to get to the business of governance. We can see with the earthquake that just happened how difficult it is to actually govern a country. I believe that the investment made by many countries in Afghanistan over these 20 years will shape the future of the country, that the Taliban cannot merely impose its own will on the country of millions of people. They have grown to expect certain freedoms in life, a certain standard of living with the economy.
Those demands will help to shape the policies of the Taliban going forward. We, as partner countries, should also be working with authorities in Afghanistan to create a better world for Afghan people. We are working every day to try to influence what is happening in Afghanistan, for the betterment of the people of Afghanistan, but also a stable region. And we can see that Central Asian states are worried about security threats coming from Afghanistan. And so we're talking about how you help with cross-border security. How you help to facilitate conversation with this very unusual Taliban government. I think we're right in the middle of all of that.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: One word that we hear consistently here and also there in Central Asian capitals is counterterrorism.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Yes.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: That's something that they are very much interested to work with you on and...
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Not just us, they've always been interested in working with many partners.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Right, exactly. So what is happening there, what what would that mean I guess, for the region working on counterterrorism together?
What we have said publicly and privately is that there needs to be a distinction between those who should be captured and prosecuted for anti-government violent activity and those who are legitimate civil society, free media. Those people should not be swept up in the same operations.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, we have fortunately for 30 years been working on counterterrorism with the governments of Central Asia. We have a robust state partnership programs. We have programs that train police and military. And there are some limited exchange of security equipment as well to make sure that Central Asian states have the technology they need to patrol a long and porous border with Afghanistan. They're very focused on that And we are as partners also focused on supporting.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: How secure do you think those borders between Uzbekistan and Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan and Afghanistan?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: I think the governments are serious about making secure borders to protect their people.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: They keep on saying it's all good.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, I think there is some truth to that, that they're working very hard with their security services to put focus on that border and to make sure that any threats that they have the capability to deal with them. And we as partners would like to support that effort. Central Asian governments the United States and other partners can talk to the Taliban about how we work together against a common threat of ISIS.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: What will be that special role for the United States in that process?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, we all have our separate negotiations with the Taliban. Ours are very complicated through 20 plus years of history. But we have a special responsibility as well. We have been involved with Afghanistan now for almost 40 years in a very fundamental way. And so, I think, as Americans, we all feel a deep sense of obligation to continue that engagement to continue to support Afghanistan's development. If you're a Central Asian country, this is existential for you, that you have to be engaged, you have to be focused on security because involves the safety of your own people. So I see no lack of attention by any of our Central Asian colleagues to the security of their borders. In fact, I see all of them investing in that. They are working with us, with Russia, with other countries to make sure that they have the capability to keep their borders strong.
... we support the reform agenda. So the things that are publicly announced that they want to do, we absolutely support that. The truth will be shown to the people of this region based on the actions taken by their government.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Many Central Asia analysts both there in the region and here as well in Washington, see that it's the US security establishment that pretty much dictates the policy or real interactions or real progress with the region in Central Asia, and that even the Biden administration with all this focus on human rights and political reforms and democracy and transparency, may sacrifice certain values to really achieve something in terms of counterterrorism. How important for you is the promotion of human rights and democracy in the region? Now we see what's happening in Tajikistan and the State Department hasn't really said much about it…
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: We have been very clear…
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: What is your position?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: We're very concerned about what has been happening in Gorno-Badakshan. We're concerned that civil society is being swept up in this effort to contain anti-government forces. We're concerned that media freedom is being limited there. At the same time, when I was in Dushanbe just a few weeks ago, we talked seriously about the threats that the government faces. It faces real threats, threats from the border, from the south in Afghanistan, and then threats of anti-government forces. What we have said publicly and privately is that there needs to be a distinction between those who should be captured and prosecuted for anti-government violent activity and those who are legitimate civil society, free media. Those people should not be swept up in the same operations. There is a distinction between the two.
Let me also add as you raise the broader question of human rights, we have actually seen some pretty spectacular movement in recent years. Let me take the example of forced labor in Uzbekistan. With the cotton harvest, none of us would have believed that since 2016, the Mirziyoyev government could have stamped out 100 percent of the forced labor happening in Uzbekistan. And we just saw the Cotton Campaign has reversed its boycott of Uzbek cotton because everyone now can see the progress being made.
I also look at Kazakhstan as a terrible set of violent activities that happened in January and that more recently you have seen some real progress towards strengthening of the parliament, reducing the powers of the president, strengthening the Human Rights Ombudsman and providing more legitimacy for the independent judiciary. Those are all things that we stand for as well.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: So, you see them as genuine actions, as genuine steps by the governments? We now have President Tokayev promoting New Kazakhstan and President Mirziyoyev has been promoting New Uzbekistan for a while. And the State Department during the Trump administration constantly said that they see President Mirziyoyev as a reform-minded person and now there is a discussion of constitutional reforms in Uzbekistan as well. So you have these two big countries in Central Asia claiming to be carrying out multi-dimensional reforms, but many doubt that they're genuine. In Uzbekistan, the presidential term now gets expanded from five to seven years. And with a new constitution President Mirziyoyev's previous two terms will get nullified, which will then qualify him or put him in a really good position to stay in power all the way until 2040. And we don't know what's going to happen in Kazakhstan. My question to you" how concerned are you with this relative democratic trajectory that these countries have been on? There is a lot of criticism of current developments there within the region especially on social media. You have any concerns?
... not my values, not the values of foreigners, but values that are really intrinsic to this region. I believe Central Asians are at their core democrats.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: So I think the way we frame it is we support the reform agenda. So the things that are publicly announced that they want to do, we absolutely support that. The truth will be shown to the people of this region based on the actions taken by their government. So, in the case of Kazakhstan, we have said when we visited there last month but we continue to say, we want to see, international community but also on behalf of all the Kazakh people, real accountability for the violence in January, that that accountability must be on behalf of those who participated in these violent actions. They must be held accountable, but so must the security services that very clearly also participated in human rights abuses during that period, included in that should be either the release or the prosecution of those remaining people that are being held since January. There has to be a fair and transparent process of accountability in the court system for people to see this as a true step forward. In the case of Uzbekistan, there are many places that the government itself knows that it can improve its progress. The places that we highlight - registration of civil society organizations, registration of religious organizations. We have constantly tried to have a dialogue about the criminalization of homosexuality there. These are very fundamental, sensitive issues in society. We would love, love to see progress forward.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: There is a huge resistance against the promotion of LGBT rights.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Well, it's a different thing to say you don't want to promote LGBT rights, you don't want to promote LGBT values. But the criminalization of homosexuality occurs in only two countries in the OSCE, in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Actually all the rest of Europe has rejected that. I would love to see progress on those issues.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: What do you hear back when you raise this issue in Tashkent?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: You know, I would love to see... having worked on this region for almost 30 years, there is real progress, in my opinion. It's hard to see that every day because that progress occurs slowly. But we do see progress on this issue. When I was ambassador in Kyrgyzstan, I went to some really amazing meetings of civil society to talk about LGBT issues, and they talked openly in hotels and public meetings. Ministry officials came to talk about the health implications for transgender people. This could never have been done 30 years ago. We see progress. It's slow, but I think mentality is changing, people's views are changing. Eventually governments will change as well.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Your strategic partners in the region are still authoritarians. What should happen for them to move from that position towards where you would like them to see?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: We are all on a spectrum of democracy, right? No democracy...
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: President Mirziyoyev recently said that "we're all students of democracy..."
We stand for their sovereignty. We believe that these are countries that should exist forever as countries, as people, and we look to invest in the sovereignty and independence of Central Asia.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: ... even in the United States, we haven't perfected our democracy. We have lots of flaws. It is true that in Central Asia, countries are in various places on the spectrum. We recognize that democracy is not easy. These countries are only 30 years old. They can't be expected to to have all the same trappings of very old democracies. They're going to have a form of democracy that suits their country. And we want to be a supportive, good partner that helps to spread the values of Central Asian people, not my values, not the values of foreigners, but values that are really intrinsic to this region. I believe Central Asians are at their core democrats.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: So there is a lot of cynicism in the region towards America. and here is why. People see what happened in Afghanistan. They see America failing at whatever mission it had in that country. They see what's happening in Ukraine and many blame, and thanks to the Russian propaganda as well, many blame the US and its allies and this global coalition it has built so far for bringing Ukraine to its current state. And they say OK, even if we are critical of Russia, who will protect us? Who will defend us if let's say there is danger from anywhere for us? Why should we rely on the United States? So, you brief answer to this question: Why should Central Asians trust and rely on the United States?
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: So I'm trying to remember who said this very famous quote but one of the great things about the United States if you live in Central Asia, is we are not close. We are very far away. This stuff, if you're thinking about Moscow or Beijing or even Ankara it feels much closer. They have interests in Central Asia, very focused on their bilateral needs. You think of the Chinese and all the Chinese investment there or Chinese citizens on the ground. Actually we're very far away. And so we have the luxury in Central Asia to be guided by principles. And you can see that very clearly in our Central Asia strategy. What is it that we are trying to do? We're trying to support independence and sovereignty, and those are big, vague terms. That is hard I think for normal people to wrap their minds around…
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: More relevant than ever…
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: More relevant after the invasion of Ukraine. Today, as I travel in Central Asia, I can see people are a little concerned about whether their countries will survive into the next few decades. That economically or politically, will they be able to remain sovereign independent states? We stand for their sovereignty. We believe that these are countries that should exist forever as countries, as people, and we look to invest in the sovereignty and independence of Central Asia.
Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek: Thank you so much for talking with us.
Assistant Secretary Donald Lu: Thank you!
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