Ambassador Henick discusses Washington's long-term vision in Uzbekistan

What are America’s priorities in Uzbekistan, the most populous nation in Central Asia? How is the U.S. Ambassador to Tashkent assessing the country’s political trajectory, and what observations is he making on the ground? As a strategic partner, what steps is Washington taking to advance its own interests while also supporting Uzbekistan in becoming a strong, independent state?

In an extensive interview with Navbahor Imamova of Voice of America in Tashkent, Ambassador Jonathan Henick discussed key issues affecting both Uzbekistan and the United States.

Full transcript:

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Ambassador Henick, it's wonderful to see you in Tashkent.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Likewise, Navbahor. It is good to see you here as well.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: This is our first formal, on-air conversation here. Before we always talked in Washington, right?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: It'll be two years come November.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And when you arrived, there were two major developments, regional, let's say. The first one was Afghanistan related. The United States had just left Afghanistan. And we were dealing with the issues concerning the border, specifically the Afghan aircraft [that Afghan pilots, fleeing the Taliban, flew to Uzbekistan]. And we now are at a point where that issue seems to have settled. Is it all settled? Is that aircraft fully under the control of the Uzbek government now or is this an ongoing process now?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I don't have anything to add to what I've already said on the issue. It's settled.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So the aircraft is at the disposal of Uzbekistan. The U.S. will help to maintain it and and that's that?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Again, you know, the details of the program were not prepared to discuss at this time.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And the objections that we are hearing from the Taliban, does that change anything?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Again, nothing further.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: But the military cooperation is quite active between the two countries, right?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: The security cooperation, military security cooperation is excellent and getting better every day.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And how much of that has to do with Afghanistan?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I'd say with certainly it has a lot to do with the threats that might be emanating from Afghanistan with potential terrorism threats.

You know, border security is important to our, you know, joint efforts to counter narcotics, people smuggling. So, but it's not unique to Afghanistan.

I think the United States and Uzbekistan over the over the last several years have built a robust security and military partnership to.

Share information to do exchanges to enhance our mutual capabilities of meeting these joint threats.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So the Afghanistan factor I noticed in my conversations with Uzbek officials has decreased dramatically. They keep on saying in post Afghanistan relationship, in post Afghanistan environment, whereas, you know, for a long time, for at least two decades, Afghanistan was such an important factor.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think that's accurate. Obviously when we had American troops in the region. That, you know, comes with it.

There's a whole host of issues in terms of supplying, transportation routes to support those troops. In that sense, I'd say that, yeah, over the last couple of years, our relationship here is focused much more narrowly on our bilateral interests, on Uzbekistan, our desire to support Uzbekistan's reform efforts to support its independence, and certainly also on our our shared regional interests as well. So, the C 5 + 1 and you know, the Trans Caspian Corridor and issues like that.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And for Uzbekistan specifically, Afghanistan is already an integral part of Central Asia. So hey keep on bringing Afghanistan into the group even though they're not part of several major regional initiatives. But Tashkent seems to be wanting to include Afghanistan. So just recently in Termez where the Airitom Free Zone opened. I'm sure you're watching that process.

A gigantic economic project right on the Uzbek-Afghan border and we saw a large delegation of the Taliban come and welcome that initiative.

It's, we believe, completely run by the Uzbek private sector. Do you see that as a positive development? Is that something that you're watching?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think it's important to remember that the United States is the the the largest contributor of humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan.

To this day, you know, we provide enormous amounts of humanitarian assistance because, like Uzbekistan, we have an interest in making sure that there are no humanitarian crises in Afghanistan, that there's no security problems that result from instability as a result of humanitarian crises.

And we recognize at the same time that countries in the region, including Uzbekistan, have very legitimate economic interests that they have to deal with the so-called government in Afghanistan. At the same time, we have a very strong dialogue with Uzbekistan about Afghanistan.

Uzbekistan is an active participant in the Doha, the international community's Doha process. And so I really think more than anything, our interests are very, very closely aligned.

And you know, we continue to work together and hopefully working together along with our other partners in the international community.

The Taliban will realize that it's in their interest to fulfill their commitments to the United States, their commitments to the international community, their commitments on human rights and that hopefully, this Doha process will then be able to move forward.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So you do support the kinds of initiatives that we see now - the creation of a free zone that'll give access to any Afghan for at least two weeks if they're coming to do business. Afghans can be now employed in that zone.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: So, Navbahor, you know more of the details than I do. I can't really comment on the zone specifically. But broadly speaking, you know, we do support anything that helps ordinary Afghan people and contributes to stability along the border.

And we do recognize that Uzbekistan has very legitimate economic concerns that they need to address. That we, I think, should be separate from the question of the Taliban, their desire for international recognition, their desire to have funds unblocked.

Those are issues which we believe need to continue. Dealt collectively by the international community through the Doha process.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: These are some of the things actually I heard from even the the managers of that zone. They believe that the zone should have nothing to do with the political developments, that no matter what, it should stay open. Even if the Afghan government changes in the future or if there is any other instability in Afghanistan. They believe that that zone should continue to function because it's also open for other South Asian countries, like Pakistan.

And Russians and Chinese are coming there to do business as well. But so far, there is nobody from the European Union or the United States ... No businesses from there have expressed any interest.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Well, like I said, I hope that in the future, again, the Taliban will fulfill their international commitments and we can move towards a process of normalization, in which case, you know, a lot of countries might be interested in the economic development of the area.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So it depends on the political will of Kabul?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Absolutely.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: I remember we discussed your priorities as you were getting ready to come to Tashkent. Where do you stand right now? If we go back to some of the priorities that you were very passionate about at that time.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I don't remember exactly what I told you last time!

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Supporting the economic development of Uzbekistan and connecting the people of America and Uzbekistan. Yeah, easy tasks!

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: All of those remain, you know, really foremost in terms of our priorities here. And I'm really pleased, you know, over the last couple of years with starting with the economic and commercial development of our, you know, relationship.

We've seen trade, you know, increasing steadily, more and more interest from U.S. companies and opportunities here in Uzbekistan, more investment, billions of dollars of investment from U.S. companies here in Uzbekistan.

And then also in terms of the economic reform process. Really, the government of Uzbekistan deserves enormous credit for the progress, even just over the last year in their WTO negotiations, in the reforms that are necessary in order to join the WTO.

And so we are really optimistic that Uzbekistan will eventually be a member of the WTO. As you know, U.S. trade Representative Catherine Tye was just here a couple of months ago. You know, she doesn't visit every country and I think her her visit here is a reflection of the importance that we attach to the.

Our economic relationship and the ongoing reform process on political reforms, well, I think we've seen some pretty momentous developments here in Uzbekistan again over the last couple of years.

The the law against gender based violence, I think is a tremendous success in a model for for the entire region. Still a lot of work to do. I think that the government here and president himself would be the first to recognize that, you know, this is the passing the law is just the beginning of the process.

Of ensuring gender equality and making sure that women, you know, of course, don't suffer from, you know, violence at home. And we're pleased to partner with the government, but also with civil society and with the media, because civil signed.

The media were, I think, a very important part of the successful passage of that law, both in terms of consultation, in terms of raising public awareness. And they will be important going forward in terms of the implementation as well. On labor rights, you know, I think we continue to see progress there as well.

And we are eager to and already are working with the government here to try to, you know, following on the historic achievements that they had in terms of eliminating child enforced labor in the cotton harvest to now make sure that that improve the relationship between employers and their workers. Make sure workers know what their what their rights are and have the ability to, you know, work collectively bargain for, you know, for better working conditions.

And these are things again, where we're seeing, progress and we're hopeful that things will continue to improve going forward.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: U.S. Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The government of Uzbekistan now admits and recognizes that civil society is critical. They're not just talking about the political development of Uzbekistan—they know they need to have some independent voices that express the interests of the private sector and even the community. They recognize that grassroots groups are important. And yet, the development is very slow, and almost everybody I talk with in the so-called tiny civil society says that it's gotten harder. It's hard to still get registered, it's hard to connect with the Uzbek government, and they also complain, of course, that there isn't much support from the international community. But the official registration is an issue. How do you see this during your time here? Where has the dynamic been going regarding civil society? You stay engaged with them.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I would say we are seeing progress. It may not always be in a straight line—sometimes there are zigs and zags, and sometimes there are steps backward. Certainly, we're familiar with the fact that many civil society organizations have difficulty getting registered here in Uzbekistan. I think what needs to happen, and what we're in the middle of, is a cultural mind shift about the role of NGOs and civil society in the democracy that we have here in Uzbekistan. There are, obviously, some who grew up in a different system and see civil society through a different lens. It's about changing their view of civil society and making sure that government officials here see civil society occasionally as critics that hold them to account, but also as potential partners in terms of providing services to the people. So, I am still optimistic, but I would agree that more progress needs to be made.

Another thing that's important to look at, and which gives me some cause for optimism, is that civil society doesn't have to look like it does in Washington or Europe. Civil society can be indigenous here. As you probably know full well, Uzbekistan has a long history of the Mahalla organization—these neighborhood councils. The president himself has, I think, on multiple occasions talked about how important the Mahallas are in terms of the development of Uzbekistan. The United States and maybe other international donors need to kind of look at the Mahalla, which is not totally independent—it's a quasi-governmental organization—but as an organization that might be able to step into some of those critical civil society functions that are going to be necessary going forward.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And parallel to those mahallas are the bloggers who have formed communities around them. They are the ones who are pushing for local solutions to local issues. Many civil society experts we've talked to, including in the West, say that we should stop analyzing civil society from that traditional perspective. Civil society isn't just human rights activists; it's broader in Uzbekistan. Yet, we don't see much being discussed here, and when we engage the bloggers and those communities, some of them are basically saying, "Let's not have these discussions about the nature of our work. Let's discuss the issues we're fighting for." So, there is that conclusion or strong belief that their work should show why they matter. Maybe just coining them as civil society isn't very helpful. They say that maybe the West isn't helping either by insisting that they must have independent organizations or that they must be organized in a particular way.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: And the same applies to what you're alluding to—for example, how we traditionally see media, right? It's kind of traditional media organizations. What we're seeing here in Uzbekistan is some experimentation, but also models that don't conform to what we traditionally expect to see. Those models include bloggers or influencers who are working independently and are not, by any stretch of the imagination, traditional media organizations, nor are mahallas and other groups. I think we need to be open to the fact that Uzbekistan is going to develop democracy in its own way. If we are truthful in our desire to support that democratic development, we shouldn't be trying to impose a model from the outside; we should be working with the individuals and organizations already here in Uzbekistan.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova), VOA: What we have also seen, especially what became quite evident in the last three to four years, is how corrupt the media environment is. Bloggers, journalists, and press officers all form a community here in Uzbekistan. You cannot separate them from each other because journalists can be bloggers, they can also serve as press secretaries, or they might do someone's public relations work. In this environment, we want to discuss conflict of interest, we want to discuss the fight against corruption, whereas the community itself seems to be quite mixed, with various players whose work could be creating major conflicts of interest.

It's very interesting because, as you know, our agency just held some trainings on solutions journalism in Uzbekistan. We had the opportunity to discuss this with journalists and bloggers, who tell us that maybe what we are doing is teaching them polite, very ethical journalism without going deeper into the media environment in Uzbekistan. They argue that these grants, this media assistance, should really support the community as it is because they believe they can be journalists and bloggers at the same time, they can be activists at the same time. Maybe we shouldn't be teaching them this global, traditional journalistic model, at least promoting those values and expecting them to follow it.

The government likes the sound of that—they say, "Yeah, that's good, because let's create our own journalism, you know, not US-influenced journalism or Western values-based journalism, but Uzbek journalism, where we shouldn't really focus on conflicts of interest, but rather on the content we are producing."

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I do think Uzbekistan should develop journalism in its own way, but I think there are still some universal truths—just like there are some universal basic human rights. One of those truths is that there needs to be a separation, for example, between opinion and factual reporting. This is why traditional media organizations are trained to clearly label opinion pieces and things that are not, or clearly mark when an article is paid for. I think the consumers of that information have the right to know whether they're reading something that has been paid for by the government, a company, or if it's just the opinion of the writer, rather than something that meets journalistic standards. There can be conflicts of interest that are really problematic. So, I'd say we need to be careful about saying, "Anything goes." There are some basic principles, but it doesn't have to look exactly like a Western media organization—as long as we are not crossing any of these red lines that lead to corruption and conflicts of interest.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So, when you say the United States supports media freedom and the media development of Uzbekistan, what do you mean? What kind of journalists and bloggers do you support?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: So, we mean a lot of things when we say that. One of them is just morally, you know, that we support independent media and media freedom. We will advocate for that, both publicly and privately, with the government. We think that's actually something the government of Uzbekistan wants, and President Mirziyoyev himself has spoken on a number of occasions about the critical role of media. In addition, we have programs that support media. Some of those are targeted at individual journalists to give them an opportunity for professional development, such as opportunities to go to the United States and develop professional contacts there. We also have more general assistance that can be provided to institutions.

Those programs are fairly small right now in Uzbekistan and are really designed to increase professionalism and teach some of these basic ethical practices. But I'm open to the idea that we need to be a little more flexible with that last category—for example, being more inclusive of bloggers and influencers, and providing them with more tools and expertise to generate their own revenue and support their activities. In the end, everybody should be obeying the law. Journalists are not exempt from the law, and neither are government officials. So, I think when it comes to conflicts of interest and corruption, we need to be careful there.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The constant criticism about the U.S. embassy, at least in Tashkent, is that you support liberal voices only. So, you don't care about Muslim bloggers or conservatives or even pro-government voices. They say, "OK, if I'm pushing for government policies, if I'm supporting Mirziyoyev, then the U.S. embassy doesn't care about me." We've heard that in various conversations. I know that you're regularly quoted by Uzbek media, so it's not like Uzbek society doesn't hear from you, but those who are not part of your programs or engagements that you hold complain about that.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Thank you for sharing the criticism. It's actually not our intent to focus only on a particular part of the ideological spectrum. When it comes to media freedom, we are very heavily engaged with the more devout parts of Uzbek society because we believe freedom of religion is not simply about minority religions here—it's about the majority religion as well, the rights of Uzbek Muslims to be able to practice their faith. When it comes to journalists doing pro-government reporting, why would we have a problem with that? Most of our agenda here is to support the government's reform efforts. If that's the impression, then maybe we need to do a better job of reaching out to those groups and making sure they feel included as well.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: They also see these critics, some of them at least—including your critics in the government—see you as an avid supporter of religious freedom and an avid supporter of LGBTQ+ rights, and that creates resentment. They say that you've been so fixated on these two things that it has become harder for them to talk with you on other issues.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Is there a question there?

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Yeah, so how do you react to that?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: We support everybody's human rights, and we don't think that any individual, no matter who they are, has special rights. Everybody has the same basic human rights. I believe this personally, and it's also my professional responsibility. I think that everybody has the right to be free from violence, to have a job, to go to school. We're not suggesting that any particular group should have special rights that aren't enjoyed by everybody else. So, I challenge the idea that we're focusing on particular groups. There may be groups that have more trouble accessing the same rights as everybody else in Uzbek society, and therefore, they are going to get a little bit more attention.

As far as religious freedom, I will say that it is a matter of U.S. government policy to support religious freedom around the world. When we do that, I want to be very clear that we're not just supporting Christianity or Judaism—we're supporting all religious freedom. For example, a couple of years ago, we were among the leading advocates for a Shia group here in Uzbekistan to be able to register a second mosque, and they got it, and they were able to do it. It's a testament to Uzbekistan's religious tolerance that these groups, which may not reflect the majority of the faithful here, are able to practice freely. Uzbekistan should be proud of having a history of religious tolerance.

At the same time, we are congressionally mandated to do a religious freedom report every year, where we report on issues of religious freedom in the country. That can include registering churches or mosques, issues related to being able to freely pray or go to a mosque, or anything of that sort. We do our best to be objective about the situation here. We talk to the religious communities and hear their concerns. In the end, it pains me to think that this might cause tension with the government here, because we are simply trying to help the government live up to its own standards of being a country that is religiously tolerant.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And what about your position on LGBTQ+ rights?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Again, as I said, we support the human rights of all individuals.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And where do you stand in your dialogue with the Uzbek government on that? Because the response, as far as we know from here, is that they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to discuss it, they don't even want to deal with that issue. "We don't have an issue with that," they say, including people like Akmal Saidov and others—the human rights faces of Uzbekistan. There are also some other voices who say that we have to first protect or ensure the rights of the majority in Uzbekistan. "Why are we even talking about these tiny groups of people when the majority of Uzbekistan still has trouble enjoying their rights?"

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think it's a fallacy to say that you have to support the rights of one group over another group. Democratic societies have an obligation, and I expect Uzbekistan included, to guarantee the rights of all their citizens. Uzbekistan is a signatory to the same international treaties that the United States is, in terms of promising to respect basic human rights. They will guarantee the rights of all their citizens.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: In general, you raise these issues when there are cases, right? These are case-related conversations that you have—it's not like, in general, you have a program to do this in Uzbekistan?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I mean, my public statements speak for themselves. Again, we support the rights of all individuals here.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: We know that the support of the LGBTQ+ community is also President Biden's priority—it’s one of his priorities—so that priority also applies to Central Asia. It's not like you're raising these issues specifically in Uzbekistan; it's regional?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: There's absolutely nothing we're doing here in Uzbekistan that we're not doing worldwide.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So, it's the worldwide policy promotion?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Again, Navbahor, what we're talking about is that every individual should enjoy the same rights—whether it's the right to enjoy freedom of religion, the right to free speech, the right to be free from violence. I think we can agree that these are things that everybody should enjoy, right? No matter who they are.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And this approach by the United States will not change even when the president changes or when the leadership changes in Washington. This is an ongoing effort?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I mean, having worked for both Republican and Democratic administrations, I see a lot of consistency in terms of our broad policy—particularly in terms of support for human rights. The emphasis may change depending on the administration and where they want to focus efforts. I can't speak to what the next administration might choose to emphasize, but broadly speaking, having worked on Central Asia for some time, I've seen a lot of consistency in our policy here—our support for Uzbekistan's independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity, and our support for regional cooperation and integration. I think I can confidently say, having worked under the last few administrations, that regardless of who wins our elections coming up in November, you can expect our policy towards Uzbekistan to remain consistent.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: As we've covered and as we've been observing, Washington's approach towards Central Asia is quite pragmatic—let's get whatever we can get done, done. Let's work with the government in ways that they want to work with us. Let's help each other. That has been the perception in Tashkent. How do you see it? I know that the first three to four years of the Mirziyoyev administration were different from now. Are they more pragmatic now than before?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think all countries, to a certain degree, are pragmatic. But I think that's selling our relationship short, to say that it's simply transactional or pragmatic. I think we are building a foundation for a long-term relationship. As you know, we elevated our relationship to a strategic partnership a few years ago, and we did that intentionally because our interests here are strategic—they're not just short-term and transactional.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And we see that from Washington. But from here, a lot of what the Mirziyoyev administration is doing with you seems to be short-term—though the effort to join the World Trade Organization and the assistance that the U.S. is providing seems long-term. At the same time, here we hear that they want investment now.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: That's normal, and it's normal for Uzbeks to be concerned about their immediate circumstances. I think that's why President Mirziyoyev and his administration have focused very heavily on economic growth, job creation, and poverty reduction. We are very pleased to partner with them on those issues and try to attract the kind of investment here that will create long-term jobs. But I don't think that means that we're being purely pragmatic or short-term in our relationship. As you've said, WTO membership, the Trans-Caspian Corridor, even the president's emphasis here on education, and our partnership programs to help implement those ambitious goals on education—that is all a very long-term investment.

Our partnerships on security are about building border security capacity, changing the way the military does training, and building an NCO corps among the military. Those are long-term goals that will change the character and capabilities of the military going forward. So, I'd say there's a mix, of course, of short-term needs, but most of what we're doing here is building a foundation for a strong long-term relationship.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The difference here is that we hear more about that from the United States. There is more analysis that we get from the United States, whereas Tashkent doesn't really provide much. As a media outlet covering Uzbekistan from Washington and from the inside, we see the system closing. I've spent a few weeks here, and it's been really hard to interview anybody in the Uzbek government. They like to have private conversations, but they don't want to go on the record. Whatever questions you have, they keep referring to the presidential administration. The super-presidency in Uzbekistan seems to have gotten stronger. How do you see the country or the system in terms of political development or evolution at this point? Has it changed during your time here?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I don't know that I have the depth of experience you do to be able to judge how much or how it's shifting in real time. I will say that I admire the president's strategic ambition and his reform agenda here. I worry, though, sometimes that the ability of this government to execute that agenda is in jeopardy unless there is more devolution of authority to the line ministries, municipalities, and Hakims.

One of the strengths of the United States is that we have what is often called a "laboratory of democracy"—50 different states implementing, in some cases, the same programs funded from Washington, but with the freedom to implement them as they see fit on the ground. Our education system, for example, has more than 50 different variations because each state sets its own curriculum and determines how it will fund education. The advantage to that is that some municipalities or states succeed while others fail, and we learn from those successes and failures. I think we need to see more of that type of experimentation here in Uzbekistan as well.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The difference we see so far in our reporting is that there is more emphasis on the process, which is progress for Uzbekistan. Because for the longest time, it was always about the goals—right? You have a roadmap for every issue to solve every major problem. You want to get there, but there isn't much discussion about the process—the steps that are necessary to take in the regions. You see those processes happening, and yet the system remains incredibly centralized, where they don't want to provide explanations. The public doesn't really know much about what's happening, what's shifting, and what's not. Isn't that hard for you to deal with Uzbekistan when you have such a closed or untransparent system?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Yeah, I think what you're touching on, Navbahor, is that there's still a cultural resistance to transparency and openness—whether it's dealing with NGOs, civil society, or, similarly, independent media. Government officials here, at both the national and local levels, are still not accustomed to dealing with an independent media. They don’t have a lot of experience with it, and they're unsure how to be transparent. Many of them worry that they may say something that gets them in trouble, and nobody is ever going to praise them for speaking to the media. Given that choice, they prefer not to engage.

I think you and I both know that there's something to be gained from being more transparent with the media—it helps raise public awareness, build public support, and, where there are problems, draws attention to those problems so they can be solved before they become bigger. It will take some time for that cultural shift to happen, but I hope we can be part of helping Uzbekistan move in that direction.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: We keep hearing across the country that the relative freedom that started around 2017 through to 2021 was very useful, in the sense that people learned to express themselves. There was wider public debate, at least virtually, and people are more comfortable now discussing issues at least privately because of that. When we ask journalists and bloggers, they see that Uzbekistan is still far more open than it was under the previous leadership of Islam Karimov, but it's not as free as it was between 2017 and 2021. So, your time here happens to be after that—so you are in the "post-relative freedom" period.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Obviously, I can't comment on the situation before I got here, but I will say that since I've been here, I've seen some remarkably robust public debates on certain issues. Air quality is one issue, and we were pleased to be part of that discussion by having an air quality monitor here at the embassy. That's an important issue that affects everybody's day-to-day life here, and there was a healthy debate about the role of government, the role of the private sector, and how to move forward. I thought that was really useful. We saw the same kind of debate about gender-based violence as well.

So, I'd like to say that I think we're seeing more and more areas where people feel comfortable having that kind of public debate. And I think the more that happens, the more it lays a good foundation going forward to expand those discussions—perhaps to areas where previously there's been too much sensitivity for an open discussion.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: You engage the presidential administration; you have meetings there, including with the president's daughter, Saida Mirziyoyeva, and others. But we almost never see you talking with any of Uzbekistan's lawmakers. Do you also engage with the parliament, which will have elections later this year?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I do. I had meetings with Senator Spayev not long ago. Over the last year and a half, we've had visits by congressional delegations to Uzbekistan from Washington, which has also given us an opportunity to engage with the parliament. We'll be watching the upcoming elections very closely because there will be a new electoral system for parliamentary representatives. I would say that we are engaging with the parliament. I'd like to see the same kind of transparency from the parliament, and we're seeing some of that. I was encouraged by some of the televised debates that they've had. We need to see more of that because, for the parliament to fulfill its potential here in the Uzbek system, it needs to be empowered, and it needs to communicate its role to the public.

We definitely will be looking at, and we have some programs in Open World and other programs that connect the Uzbek parliament with the U.S. Congress so that we can share our experiences.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Especially the legislative chamber is described as the more closed one. Most of the media community here has never been to the Uzbek parliament or the Senate. Yes, in the Senate, some sessions are live, and some of them are at least covered more extensively than those of the legislative chamber. So, the hope within the media community here is that the next parliament will be more open—

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Like an Uzbek version of C-SPAN, right?

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Right, the C-SPAN. But there's also a lot of cynicism here about the upcoming elections, by the way. Especially in the regions, many people don't even know that there are elections approaching. The parties, especially the five major parties, remain unchanged. The attempts to create and register an opposition party have failed so far. I know that the embassy raised some of these issues at some point. I know that your diplomats met with those activists. Do you still engage them? Are you still interested in this issue?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I want to avoid, as the U.S. ambassador, any appearance that I support any one political party. But we do support the registration of opposition parties in Uzbekistan. I think the Uzbek people, the voters, deserve as much choice as they can get. That will strengthen the democratic system here in Uzbekistan. People will feel more vested in the system if their representatives—the ones that speak to them and get their votes—are represented in parliament. So, I think there is still some work to be done on that. We'd like to see the political party system here develop a bit more. As a first step, it would be helpful—even in advance of the upcoming elections—for the five registered parties to articulate their policies, to explain the differences between them so that people can make an informed decision on which party to vote for.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Will the United States observe the elections? Will you have any experts coming? I know that you will observe as part of the OSCE, but have there been any efforts to invite American experts through you to come help or assist?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Usually, the best way for us to do that is through the OSCE, and we work with the ODIHR mission here. The ODIHR missions typically include American experts as well. Of course, our embassy will also be involved, so we'll be interested to see how the elections proceed.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Interestingly, during that relative period of freedom—those three or four years—the international community, embassies, and international organizations, including this embassy and the United Nations, were more open and more critical of the status quo in Tashkent. And now it's quite silent. Diplomats seem quite comfortable with the way the Uzbek government is now—with the leadership. Statements or speeches at various public events, they are very supportive of everything that's happening. We know that every partner of Uzbekistan has its recommendations, its own wish list, but, in general, you have been very complimentary about everything happening in Uzbekistan. Is that intentional? How does that come around? Because you seem very comfortable, for example, with the way the presidential administration functions. You have a good relationship with Saida Mirziyoyeva, and you seem fine with wherever Uzbekistan is heading next.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think the administration here deserves a lot of credit for the things they have done, for the vision they have articulated, and for some of the reforms that have been implemented. But I've also been candid about where I think things have fallen short. Every year, as you know, we produce a very public human rights report, in addition to our report on religious freedom, which articulates where we think there are shortcomings. I think it's important to recognize the overall progress and not focus too much on individual areas where there could be improvement. Quite frankly, we see this government as a partner we can work with. As long as that partnership is productive and we're seeing progress—not only in deepening the relationship in areas of mutual interest but also in seeing them make progress on their economic and democratic reforms—then, yes, you will probably continue to hear me say positive things about them.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: How comfortable are you with the political nature here? You have the president's daughter as one of the president's closest advisors. What does that say about the political development in this country?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I don't presume to judge or cast judgment on the president here regarding whom he chooses as his advisors. That is up to him.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: With the history of presidential daughters here, in this country and in neighboring Kazakhstan and the region itself. People always judge the situation based on those histories, right?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think people should be judged on the basis of themselves, not on the basis of somebody else. I don't pay much attention to those comparisons.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And do you see Saida Mirziyoyeva and others around her as full-fledged officials?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I have dealt with Ms. Mirziyoyeva as an advisor to the president. I think she has been a very productive and capable interlocutor on the issues we've discussed. I'm not pretending that she is fulfilling a role she is not. There has been a lot of commentary about whether she is being groomed to be a successor to the president. Far be it for me to judge that—I don't know what the president's intentions are. Obviously, I think that anybody who succeeds the president needs to be someone who is elected, who has campaigned, and who is judged by the people of Uzbekistan to have the requisite experience and expertise. I don't presume right now to predict who that might be.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Some of your colleagues who also had conversations with her told me in Washington that they see her as a change-maker. So, she and others around her claim to be the reformers of Uzbekistan—they are leading the reform process and want the reform program to succeed. How do you see her and the team around President Mirziyoyev now?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think we're focusing too much on one individual. In the two years I've been here, there have been some changes, as you know, within the government—new ministers. I've seen a number of younger, Western-educated ministers appointed, who I think have been strong advocates for the president's reform agenda. I've also met with a number of ministers who were appointed because of their technocratic expertise, and I've found them to be capable interlocutors and advocates for the president's agenda as well. So, I worry that we tend to focus on individuals and their relatives, and I think it's probably a mistake.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: You know why we tend to focus on that? Because other ministers that you're mentioning were more visible for a while, and now they're not anymore. So, who we see now is President Mirziyoyev and Saida Mirziyoyeva. So, there is this natural attention on them. For example, she was recently appointed as someone responsible [in the administration] for Karakalpakstan. So, they are begging for focus.

What's new about Uzbekistan: This is something people actually discuss around the country—they may be whispering, not necessarily debating it on air, but they are paying attention to these things.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I would hope that journalists like yourself, and maybe the ones that you trained in solutions-based journalism, would resist the temptation to just go for the easy stories. I think it would be a lot more interesting and informative for the Uzbek public if they focused on some of these other key individuals who are frankly helping to transform Uzbekistan and build it for the future.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: This is a very young country, as you know, and on a day-to-day basis, I'm sure you meet a lot of Uzbeks. What is new about them? How do you see Uzbek society changing in your eyes?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: For me, it seems like a society that has its eyes open to the rest of the world. We are seeing young people who, for them, it's not difficult at all to imagine getting an education abroad or working abroad. And I think that's exciting because an Uzbekistan that is open to the rest of the world is likely to be one that develops more quickly, integrates well, diversifies its relationships, and emerges as a strong and independent partner.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: You have worked with Uzbekistan for a long time, right? Decades even. You started your career here, or at least you were a young diplomat here, when Uzbekistan became independent. And from Washington, you also oversaw policy towards Uzbekistan and Central Asia. For the longest time, Uzbekistan was a country where we heard mostly from the government—so, we judged everything based on what the government said. It was hard to engage with the people of Uzbekistan. Now, there are more ways to engage—including for the international community and America. You're now in conversation with the Uzbek people, right? We can say that you're talking to them on a day-to-day basis. So, what you hear from the government and what you hear from the people—how connected are those things? How consistent are they with each other?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: That's a good question, and I don't know the answer to it entirely. I think the president himself is concerned about hearing from the people. That's why he's talked about the important role that media has, and he's even talked about the role that bloggers have. From everything I've seen, either the president is reading social media himself or someone is passing it on to him—he's definitely following along. He knows that to be an effective leader of this country, you have to have your finger on the pulse of how people feel.

But I think it's difficult still, even in Uzbekistan, as much as we've seen improvements, the media environment still needs to be strengthened further. People need to feel comfortable expressing themselves and seeking out opinions. And as we see that develop and improve, we might see that gap between the government's voice and the people's voice start to narrow.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: To what extent do you take that into account as you analyze your policy here, your own achievements, and report back to Washington? How will that shape U.S. policy towards Uzbekistan and the region?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: We are trying to build a relationship that will transcend administrations, whether that’s a change in the U.S. administration or a change in the administration here in Uzbekistan. Fundamentally, that is a relationship between our countries and between our people. So, I don't know if we get the balance perfectly right, but we want to work with the government because we see the government trying to do things for the benefit of the Uzbek people. At the same time, we also want to have a direct conversation with the Uzbek people and work with them as well.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The word "nepotism" is still often raised in social media, if not as much in day-to-day media, even though there are more conversations now about conflicts of interest in this country. We did discuss this issue over the summer during our trainings, where we looked at where things stand in terms of anti-corruption efforts. We see progress there, but there are still concerns that the level of nepotism in the system could affect the economic and social development of this country and hinder meaningful discussions. Do you observe this as well?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think that corruption is a problem that exists everywhere—it continues to be a problem in the United States, and it’s obviously still a major problem here as well. Corruption is an insidious tax on everybody in a country. Many of our programs are intended to strengthen the rule of law here, to work with the Anti-Corruption Agency, and to help develop laws on conflicts of interest and financial disclosures for government officials—something that I have to do in the United States, as well. These are best practices from around the world that help minimize corruption. It's never going to completely disappear, but what you want to do is minimize the negative impact it can have on society, on the functioning of government, and on undermining public trust in government. People need to trust their government, and they need to feel comfortable paying taxes, knowing those taxes are not going to be misused.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Are you discussing these issues at the highest levels? Can you talk about this freely, for example, in your meetings?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Absolutely. We've talked about these issues and many others, and they agree. They echo the president's desire to tackle corruption and have talked about the need to move forward on implementing certain laws. I can't remember exactly how much detail we got into during those discussions, but nothing I've heard from the senior officials here leads me to believe they are not supportive of the president's anti-corruption agenda. That doesn’t mean it's going to be easy—tackling corruption is one of the most difficult things you can do. There are a lot of vested interests that are going to oppose the reforms and the laws necessary. We'll continue to work on it.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: This is why it took so long to get to this point—to finally adopt something on conflicts of interest. We believe you have candid conversations with the Uzbek government. One thing they remain sensitive about is foreign influence. We’ve seen what's happening in neighboring countries—laws restricting foreign influence. In Uzbekistan, we don’t have that yet, even though we know that the leadership is still sensitive about who is doing what, especially regarding sources of funding and intentions. They are sensitive about Russia's role, but they’re also sensitive about Western countries’ and America's influence. Many people who go abroad for training or exchange programs come back and get interrogated, and they get pressured by security services here—including visitors to the United States. Are you concerned about that? Do you think the Uzbek government is concerned about your influence, overall—about U.S. assistance influence?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think the government of Uzbekistan wants to be independent, and we support their goal of being independent. Any country is going to have to balance its independence with its desire to have relationships with other countries. Uzbekistan continues to have a very close economic relationship with Russia—through trade, remittances from migrant workers, and so on. That equals influence to a certain degree. As Uzbekistan's relationship with the United States and other countries grows stronger, there will be similar ways for other countries to have influence here. So, it’s the responsibility of Uzbekistan and its leadership to make sure it has a diversity of relationships so that it ultimately emerges independent as a result, and we support that goal.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: In our analysis, we see that Tashkent is more sensitive about the political effects of Russia's influence, while they are more sensitive about American funding when it comes to the United States—like, who is doing what financially, particularly NGOs or activism.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: All I can say is that our funding is very transparent. The government is well aware of our various assistance programs and who our partners are. They have ample opportunity to object to these programs if they think it threatens Uzbekistan's sovereignty. None of our programs are intended to do that.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Have there been any objections since you've been here to anything coming from the United States?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Well, we've talked about how some NGOs have difficulty getting registered here, but no, I would say the problem we most often encounter is bureaucracy. Coming from a very large government myself, I understand that bureaucracy can be challenging, but it is particularly challenging here to navigate.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The USAID expanded its mission a couple of years ago. How is that going? Are the programs expanding? Do you have any issues there?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: There are always issues. In terms of political issues, no, there haven’t been any major problems regarding the acceptance of our programs here. In fact, we have had so much success that we can’t meet the demands of the country. We get constant requests from the government to be involved in various areas, provide technical assistance, or do more in specific spheres, but we simply don't have the resources to respond to every one of those requests. We work with the government to prioritize, and we negotiate assistance agreements for specific sectors.

We have one that covers education, and we’ve talked about it publicly. We’re trying to negotiate similar agreements to cover our economic programs and potentially cover our health programs as well. Quite the contrary to any challenges, I think the USAID mission here has been met with open arms by the government, and our programs are going very well. They’ve had a national-level impact. For example, sometimes we work with the government to pilot a program in one or two provinces, and then, as a testament to how valuable the government finds these programs, they take the results and use their own funds to scale it across the entire country. For us, that kind of partnership is what success looks like, and we are seeing more and more of those successes every day.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Ambassador Sidikov in Washington keeps saying that Uzbekistan is open to having any kind of conversation with the United States—that everything is up for discussion and that there is nothing the Mirziyoyev administration is uncomfortable with. And yet, we know of several Americans who haven’t been able to visit Uzbekistan as experts, specialists, or university professors, even if they were invited or if Uzbeks wanted them here. Do you deal with those issues? Especially keeping in mind the recent law here that essentially prohibits foreigners from saying anything critical or anything that might harm the image of the Uzbek people and Uzbekistan?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I haven't gotten involved in individual cases of people looking to travel here. As far as the law you mentioned, we do have some concerns about it, but I think we’re waiting to see exactly how the government implements it. I'm not aware of anybody being charged under that law yet. We don't know of any such cases, and I’ve been assured by the government that the law is not intended to restrict legitimate criticism that people might have about the government or its policies.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: But you will raise those issues if, for example, Americans or Uzbek Americans get targeted?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Of course. If Americans or any other foreigners are prosecuted here for legitimate free speech, then that will be an issue.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: One last question: it has to do with Karakalpakstan. You have been one of the very few voices that has talked about the importance of the final report—whatever happened in Nukus in June- July 2022. What happened to the independent commission's report? I was in Karakalpakstan for a few days, and I spoke with officials and others, and I also asked them about the report.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: You didn’t get a copy of the report, did you?

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: No, I don't have the copy of the report, but we talked about Nukus as well. You know what they said? They said they don’t care about that report. They said, “We don't need that report; we know what happened on our soil.” They said that the independent commission was supposed to report to the Uzbek parliament. "They can do whatever they want in Tashkent, but here we know, and it is not important for us." But Tashkent has not really responded to that, or have you heard any responses from the Uzbek government to your calls?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I have not. I continue to believe that it would be helpful both for the government and the Uzbek people—and for the international community at large—for that report to be made public. I think there are still open questions about what exactly happened and whether there has been full accountability for the events that transpired in Nukus. The report itself won't necessarily bring that accountability, but I think it would be an important step in promoting more transparency about what happened and moving us in that direction.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And would you be OK if they say it's a secret—that they discussed it internally and they’re not going to reveal the findings?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think, in retrospect, it would have been very misleading for the government to establish an independent commission in the wake of those tragic incidents only for that commission's report to be buried.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And the commission also includes members of the current parliament, whose term is ending soon. If they want to do anything, they should do it now, right?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think that it would, in retrospect, have been very misleading for the government to establish an independent Commission, you know, in the wake of those tragic incidents, only for that independent, independent commission to have its report buried.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: And that commission also includes the members of the current parliament whose term is ending. So if they wanted to do anything, they should be doing it now, right?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Yeah.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The Ombudsman is the head of that Commission. Do you engage them? Are you in touch with them? Have they provided you any response?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I haven't seen the report yet. I mean, I was told initially that the report was gonna be held until the legal proceedings were were finished. My understanding is the legal proceedings have finished. So I don't know why the report has not been finished.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The general position of the Uzbek government is that everything is fine in Karakalpakstan. Don't worry we're good. We've dealt with all the grievances we heard there. We are funding Karakalpakstan very well. They have a solid credible government and we're fine. So, don't even touch this topic ... That's what we hear.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I've also visited Karakalpakstan and I've seen efforts by the government to address kind of the basic needs of the people in Karakalpakstan. I think there's all kinds of special tax breaks and subsidy programs and I think that's good. It's one of the poorest regions of the country and I think it deserves the attention it's getting. The president assigning his daughter, you know ... We could take that as a political signal as well that the president really wants his administration to pay real attention to the needs of the people in Karakalpakstan. That is all very positive. But at the same time, it's not completely reassuring to people who have real questions about what happened in Nukus two years ago.

Tashkent, Uzbekistan: US Ambassador to Uzbekistan Jonathan Henick talking with VOA's Navbahor Imamova

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: In the short term, is there anything that worries you about Uzbekistan? That you would like to change or to see change?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: No, I don't have any particular worries. Like I said, I'm very encouraged by the direction that things are going here. I'm very pleased by the developments in our bilateral relationship. I'm very hopeful that, you know, there's, you know, opportunities going forward for us to continue to strengthen our relationship.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Any specific dimensions?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: No, I don't have any specific dimensions that you're watching that you're focusing only things we've already discussed, you know, as we know, like, you know, the development of civil society, I think. You know, the I'd like to see a a healthier environment for the, for the independent media can thrive here. Those are things are things that will ultimately support the president's reform agenda. But, you know, obviously reduction of bureaucracy. We've talked about the need to devolve more authority to, you know, to lower levels. I mean, those are I think, we covered a lot of the key issues. I think those are potentially gonna be challenges going forward.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: So when we hear the Uzbek ambassador in Washington, see, we're open for any kind of engagement, for any kind of a conversation with the United States, you agree?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: There isn't anything that I absolutely agree the government here has been willing to engage. Sometimes, you know, they are difficult discussions, but but you know, that's something, you know what you say in in Turkish: Dostlar achchiq so'ylar ... You know, friends can have those difficult discussions.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: The closest we heard Washington described President Mirziyoyev, in terms of pushing for change in Uzbekistan was the word, the adjective they used, was "reform-minded. A lot of people think Washington treats Merziyoyev as a reformer, even though, in my own reporting, I have never heard any American official call Mirziyoyev as a reformer. The closest was the "reform -minded" that Alice Wells, your former boss, put that description.

How would you describe him politically now? Ge is President Mirziyoyev, but in terms of his rule?

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I think whether you call him a reformer or reform-minded, you know. It implies a kind of a level of judgment that I don't want to go into. I think he is a leader with a vision for his country and he's communicated that vision to his people. The question of whether or not, you know, his administration will be able to execute that vision, you know, remains an open question.

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Thank you so much ..

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: Thank you!

Navbahor Imamova, VOA: Thank you so much spending time with us to have this wonderful conversation.

U.S. Ambassador Jonathan Henick: I always enjoy talking with you.